George Clooney on Good Night, and Good Luck…

Full Transcript

Friday 10/14/2005

George Clooney talks about making the film, Good Night, and Good Luck about journalist Edward R. Murrow trying to bring down Senator Joseph McCarthy.

00:00
Charlie Rose: His new film is “Good Night and Good Luck”, which he co-wrote and directed and stars in. It is the story of the conflict between television news, Edward R. Murrow as the anchor, and Senator Joseph McCarthy in the House Un-American Activities Committee. Here is the trailer from the film.
00:21
Unidentified Female: Let me see this.
00:24
Unidentified Male: It’s a loyalty oath. (INAUDIBLE) American.
00:31
Unidentified Female: Murrow, sign it. If you don’t sign this, you and I are a target.
00:35
Unidentified Male: If I don’t sign it, they will fire me. Ten seconds. Good evening. Any man who protects communists is not fit to wear that uniform. You can’t convict people by rumor and hearsay and innuendo. Are my children going to be asked to denounce me, are they going to be judged on what their father was labeled? I see a chain reaction that has no end.Charges were in a sealed envelope. Nobody saw them.Wouldn’t you guess that the people who have seen the contents of that envelope might have . Who? . a better idea of what makes someone a danger to his country. Who, who are these people? . or do you think it should be you that decides?Who are the people? Are they elected, are they appointed? Is it you? I search my conscience. And I can’t find any justification for this. Our next show is going to be about Senator McCarthy.I’m going to go right at him. We will not walk in fear one of another. This is no time for men who oppose Senator McCarthy’s methods to keep silent. Mr. Edward R. Murrow has made repeated attacks upon me and those who are fighting communists. Somebody is going to go down. You are going to get audited this year. Not me, you.
01:53
Unidentified Female: McCarthy wants April 6th.
01:55
Unidentified Male: I will not be deterred. He is going to come after me. You understand the position you are putting us in?Let’s walk very carefully through these next few moments.Why don’t you just fire me? Go after Joe Kennedy, we’ll pay for it. Murrow is a symbol, the leader and the cleverest of the jackal pack, who engage in propaganda for communist causes.
02:18
Ok: We’re going to go with the story. Because the terror is right here in this room.
02:22
Unidentified Male: Ten seconds. Five, four, three, two . We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home. Good night and good luck.
02:35
Charlie Rose: I am pleased to welcome George Clooney back tothis table. Welcome back.
02:41
George Clooney: Glad to be back.
02:43
Charlie Rose: How is your back, speaking of back?
02:45
George Clooney: Pretty good. Not bad, I have a few issues still to deal with .
02:48
Charlie Rose: Yes.
02:49
George Clooney: . but mostly pretty good.
02:53
Charlie Rose: So — you had surgery.
02:54
George Clooney: A lot of surgeries. Yeah, I have had several. I — you know, it’s just – it’s a bad luck sort of incident. And mostly now I have these — I do these injections to try and seal up leaks, basically.
03:04
Charlie Rose: Yes.
03:07
George Clooney: I’m trying to plug. You know, it is all you do when you get older, plug up holes.
03:10
Charlie Rose: George is getting older.
03:12
George Clooney: That’s it. I don’t like that. It’s not fun.
03:17
Charlie Rose: Age – age is treating you well, my friend.
03:19
George Clooney: Feeling great.
03:20
Charlie Rose: Things we don’t see.
03:22
George Clooney: Exactly. Old, strapped in.
03:25
Charlie Rose: For people like me and so many journalists youknow, I’m sure everyone has told you this, Murrow was a hero.
03:29
George Clooney: Uh-huh.
03:31
Charlie Rose: A hero to your father.
03:32
George Clooney: Yes.
03:34
Charlie Rose: You knew the name Edward R. Murrow in Nick Clooney’s household.
03:37
George Clooney: Yes. My – my father used to do the speech that we begin and end the film with, the famous box of lights and wires .
03:41
Charlie Rose: Yes.
03:43
George Clooney: . speech. My dad used to stand on a chair when we were kids and do that speech. And he would do that, and he would do the Mark Anthony soliloquy. It was one or the other. It was either “Friends, Romans, countrymen,” or the box of lights and wires.
03:57
Charlie Rose: We all steal from them when we do thesecommencement speeches.
04:00
George Clooney: I know, you have to.
04:02
Charlie Rose: But so, you knew him, and so therefore fastforward to knowing who Murrow was, knowing that this was acourageous journalist, who in the end, you know, what he did,but ended up not in journalism by the time he died.
04:10
George Clooney: Sure, not – not at all.
04:12
Charlie Rose: To the decision to make this movie. Was it the times that said I got to tell the story, and Murrow is the man to tell the story through his experience or something else?
04:19
George Clooney: Well, there is a lot of things. I – it’s – I’ve always been fascinated with this specifically. I’m fascinated with the two greatest moments in broadcast journalism, I consider, which are Cronkite coming back from Vietnam and saying this is a stalemate at best.
04:30
Charlie Rose: And Lyndon Johnson saying when he sees that, it’s all over.
04:35
George Clooney: Yes. Johnson not running for reelection.Those would seem to be two times that if not changed a policy overnight, made people aware that they weren’t a minority overnight. And so, it was the incredible power of television.And I don’t think you could do it again. I don’t think you would have 40 million viewers .
04:52
Charlie Rose: Yes.
04:53
George Clooney: . following one guy. So first I was – I was always been fascinated with that specific moment. It’s a brave time.
05:01
Charlie Rose: Yes, I mean, you can’t — you get it from the film, but the climate, I mean you got it out in Hollywood where people couldn’t get work. They were blacklisted. The whole environment at that time.
05:08
George Clooney: And – and .
05:10
Charlie Rose: . people living in fear.
05:12
George Clooney: . living in fear, but living in fear of so many different elements. You were living in fear, you know, kids were wearing dog tags because they thought they were going to get blown up, you know, you get duck and cover drills.
05:21
Charlie Rose: Right.
05:23
George Clooney: You were living in fear of the idea that yourneighbor might be a communist, and you were living in fear ofsomebody ratting you out as being a communist, so there wasa lot of fear going on.
05:30
Charlie Rose: And then Murrow says famously in the room in the studio, fear is in this room.
05:33
George Clooney: Yes, terror is in this room. And — and did say that line. And – and was the sort of defining moment. Although he wanted to go at McCarthy for a bit, he was always looking for, as he called it, the little picture, which was the Milo Radulovich story. But the reason we thought of doing this, it is something I have been knocking around. My friend Walon Green, it’s one of the writers who wrote “The Wild Bunch” and stuff, he and I did a movie of the week we wrote, about this sort of event. But we fictionalized a lot of the characters. And it was my fault that I ha a bad concept. And we did that about seven or eight years ago. And thankfully, CBS didn’t make that film. And I started re-reading those speeches that Murrow gives.
06:08
Charlie Rose: Yes.
06:10
George Clooney: And they seemed awfully prescient.
06:13
Charlie Rose: Yes.
06:15
George Clooney: . they seemed like it was something —
06:17
Charlie Rose: It seemed like they could be read today and be applicable.
06:20
George Clooney: They seemed like if – if someone wanted to read them during a convention, they probably would have been elected president. They were that good. You know, they are that – that strong, when you’re talking about we will not confuse dissent with – with disloyalty. And remember always that we are not descended from fearful men. I love that, not from men who feared to write or speak to defend the causes that are for the moment unpopular. It’s some pretty good words. And I started looking at that. And I thought, well, look, it’s not my job, I’m not a journalist. I’m a son of a journalist. It’s not my job to preach or to talk about or to tell people how they should think. It is my job, however, if I’m in the position to raise the debate and have those questions asked again. I thought it’s not a bad place to do it when it’s Edward R. Murrow’s words.
07:03
Charlie Rose: It is a good place to start.
07:05
George Clooney: Yeah.
07:07
Charlie Rose: The other thing that was great about Murrow ishis impact on other people around him.
07:12
George Clooney: Uh-huh.
07:13
Charlie Rose: You know, I mean, in World War
07:15
Ii: Uh-huh. Howard K. Smith, Charlie Collingwood .
07:18
Charlie Rose: Right.
07:19
George Clooney: . eventually Dan Schor.
07:22
Charlie Rose: Right.
07:23
George Clooney: . Marvin Kalb.
07:26
Charlie Rose: Oh, it was just an amazing group of people. The inspiration that he was. When you set out to make the movie, black and white was inevitable because you were making — using news reel of the time?
07:34
George Clooney: Yes, because we — I made the decision veryearly on to use only McCarthy playing himself, as Murrow didwhen he did his shows.
07:41
Charlie Rose: So, why did you make that decision?
07:43
George Clooney: Because the truth is, there is a – there is sort of this revisionist history going around that McCarthy was a good guy. You know, it’s coming up a lot.
07:49
Charlie Rose: Somebody said that — Ann Coulter is promoting that idea.
07:53
George Clooney: She wrote a book called “Treason,” where she said that basically Murrow is a traitor and that – that McCarthywas right about Annie Lee Moss.
07:58
Charlie Rose: She said that Murrow was a traitor?
08:00
George Clooney: I think that — I think pretty much that is whatshe said. It is – it is called “Treason,” so it’s basically calling all of us — she actually came out .
08:09
Charlie Rose: All (INAUDIBLE) traitors.
08:10
George Clooney: She came after me. She said something about how I was less masculine than the French, or something which made me laugh. I thought she did something I would never do with her is question her masculinity. But – but the thing that made me laugh about it, or the point was, of course.
08:23
Charlie Rose: Which you would never question, her masculinity.
08:25
George Clooney: Never. But what – what — the problem is, and where she got it wrong and where she – she made the huge mistake in journalism terms was that .
08:31
Charlie Rose: Yes.
08:32
George Clooney: . when you see the show and you see what Murrow actually says all the way through the show, he constantly, consistently says, you will note that neither the senator nor myself nor anyone in this room knows or claims that these people are or are not communists. We demand they have the right to face their accuser.
08:46
Charlie Rose: It’s about due process.
08:48
George Clooney: Due process.
08:50
Charlie Rose: The interesting thing too is that Murrow did,chose to use what the senator had said.
08:53
George Clooney: Uh-huh. Hard to rebut yourself.
08:57
Charlie Rose: Exactly.
08:59
George Clooney: That’s why we did it, and it’s for the samesense, was — if we had an actor play him, you would say, we were making him look too much like a buffoon .
09:04
Charlie Rose: Yes.
09:06
George Clooney: . and he does a pretty good job of that himself.
09:09
Charlie Rose: Especially near the end.
09:11
George Clooney: U-huh.
09:13
Charlie Rose: Yeah.
09:14
George Clooney: Yeah, that was when drinking became an issue. The interesting thing, you know, some people have said we used selective cuts of the film. We – we have done better than that. We used the best stuff of McCarthy. There is some really bad stuff out there. When he has a 28 minute and 28 second rebuttal, it’s – it’s one of the worst pieces of broadcasting you’ve ever seen. He’s – he’s not in the league of Murrow.
09:34
Charlie Rose: Yes.
09:36
George Clooney: He’s drunk.
09:37
Charlie Rose: Oh, understandably so.
09:39
George Clooney: Absolutely. He was out of his league. And the interesting thing was the — what hurt McCarthy much more than Murrow going after McCarthy was McCarthy’s rebuttal, because he — when you turn around and you say Murrow is a traitor, well, the problem with that, in calling him a communist and the cleverest of “the jackal” pack — we knew, everyone in the country knew that he was on the top of that building during the London blitz.
10:01
Charlie Rose: Yes.
10:03
George Clooney: We knew he was a patriot.
10:05
Charlie Rose: Yeah. And it is so obvious that that’s what they all expected, too. I mean — you’re playing — McCarthy was playing into their hands by .
10:11
George Clooney: Yes.
10:13
Charlie Rose: . by going after him in the same way he had been going after other people, because as you say —
10:18
George Clooney: But you could argue the point, which is aninteresting point, as – as you talk to Joe and Shirley Wershba,who I have become very good friends with, that there was also an element of this that was self- defense. Because Don Surine did pull Joe Wershba over, who worked for Hoover .
10:28
Charlie Rose: Right.
10:30
George Clooney: . and said – and handed him a secret envelope that said that he can prove that Murrow is a communist. So they knew they were going to get hit. So they thought we better hit him first. So in a way, you can say there was some self-defense in that.
10:43
Charlie Rose: You chose just to take this focus about theMcCarthy confrontation; there is not a whole lot we learnabout private life of Edward R. Murrow; there is not much discussion about what he did in World War
10:58
Ii: . what it was like to be in London.
11:00
George Clooney: Or went to the camps.
11:02
Charlie Rose: Or “Harvest of Shame,” and all of those films that he made.
11:06
George Clooney: Really, and he was the first one to do –interestingly, he was the first one to really take on the tobacco industry, which, of course, killed him at a very young age.
11:13
Charlie Rose: He died of lung cancer in ’50 — what?
11:15
George Clooney: Yes, ’56.
11:16
Charlie Rose: Yes. Why — why that, though? I mean in — in order to magnify the clash?
11:20
George Clooney: I – I felt as if I didn’t want to do a bio-pic. There was a specific — there was a specific story that I wanted to tell.And that story was five episodes of television. And I wanted them — I wanted to hermetically seal everything inside this studio, like films that I think have reflected fear really well, like the original “Fail/Safe,” that just basically sort of sucks everything inside. Because the minute you open it up and start to talk about other issues, people have sort of outs. And we’re probably not — I’m probably not skilled enough as a director to show and to completely show the fear, if you just leave the fear outside the room. But when you stay inside this room this whole time and talk about it, it is fairly easy to do.
12:00
Charlie Rose: You create a lot of energy, though, in terms of the way it moves around in that room. The idea for the kind of — for the jazz singer.
12:05
George Clooney: Uh-huh.
12:07
Charlie Rose: Where is that from?
12:09
George Clooney: I liked the idea of a Greek chorus.
12:10
Charlie Rose: I could tell.
12:12
George Clooney: Do you know what it was? It was — I’ll tell you the funny thing, it was sort of in a way a rip-off of Fosse. I – I think “Cabaret” is a brilliant film.
12:19
Charlie Rose: I do too. Yes.
12:22
George Clooney: And I sort of like the idea of the Joel Greycharacter sort of standing there, looking you in the eye and singing. I also thought it was an interesting — there were a lotof places that we wanted to just have, you know, because Ididn’t want to have a score to it. I didn’t want — I thought silence would be our score.
12:34
Charlie Rose: Yeah. It was the moment in which just nothing happens for like I don’t know how long.
12:39
George Clooney: You, but you hear nothing.
12:40
Charlie Rose: Yeah, nothing.
12:42
George Clooney: And I, you know, I love that. To me, I love when I see films that do that. With “12 Angry Men,” you’ll see it every once in a while .
12:47
Charlie Rose: Yes.
12:48
George Clooney: . and films that do that — some of the early television dramas did that beautifully.
12:54
Charlie Rose: Speaking of that, in terms of — if you look at “12 Angry Men” or “Fail/Safe,” what other films — what was your guidance here? I mean, when you said,
13:04
Ok: Well, you mean who did I steal from?
13:07
Charlie Rose: Yes, exactly.
13:08
George Clooney: OK.
13:10
Charlie Rose: I was looking for a nice way to say that.
13:11
George Clooney: You can find a nice way to say that. I stolefrom, you know, the first film I did, I wanted to be .
13:16
Charlie Rose: Doesn’t everybody?
13:18
George Clooney: They do, actually. The first film I stole from Steven Soderbergh and Joel and Ethan Coen when I did “Confessions.”
13:24
Charlie Rose: Well, Soderbergh is your partner. You can do that.
13:27
George Clooney: You steal from those guys. Because I wanted to make the camera a character in that film. This film was about the words and only about the words. So I started looking at like Godard films and I thought, well, I even tried to get some of the lenses that he used in “Breathless,” and watched a lot of those films. And then I realized that that was in a way too cinematic, and that I needed to think it more like a Pennebaker documentary or the Drew documentaries like “Crisis” and “Primary.”
13:44
Charlie Rose: Right. Right.
13:47
George Clooney: And so for a while, we even thought aboutshooting it on Super16 and shooting it in that sort of a vein. We eventually shot it with tw long lenses on 35-millimeter cameras going at the same time. And just we – we had to shoot very quickly, you know. But in general, it came down to documentary guys.
14:00
Charlie Rose: Why David?
14:01
George Clooney: I don’t know a better actor for the part.
14:03
Charlie Rose: Were you so sure in the beginning?
14:05
George Clooney: Well, you’ve got to remember, I – we – I’ve never seen him do it. I called him up and said, do you want to do it? You know, I’m not particularly talented at a lot of things, butI’m very good at casting. You know, Sam Rockwell was the perfect guy to play Chuck Barris.
14:20
Charlie Rose: He was. He was great.
14:24
George Clooney: David is the perfect guy, and the reason is not just because he is a wonderful actor, but, you know, I’m the right age to play Murrow, you know, I could have done it in – in some sense you could – you could say well, I could have pulled that off. But the truth is, Murrow himself, his – his body, hisbody language, his character always felt like he had the weight of the world .
14:41
Charlie Rose: I know he did, yeah.
14:44
George Clooney: . on it. And David as an actor in everything he does has that same sort of gravitas that isn’t necessarily associated with me.
14:53
Charlie Rose: So, explain that.
14:55
George Clooney: Well, you know, I don’t think people think oh,poor George.
14:58
Charlie Rose: Oh, poor George! No, they don’t.
15:02
George Clooney: So I thought, well, that is 99 percent of thework for a director is getting the right guy, so I got the right guy.
15:06
Charlie Rose: I mean, but there was no second choice, there was no third choice, and this was it.
15:10
George Clooney: No, in fact, everybody we got was a first choice. Frank Langella was the first choice, Patty Clarkson.
15:15
Charlie Rose: Yes. Frank Langella was surprised by, A, because of size.
15:18
George Clooney: Yeah, uh-huh.
15:20
Charlie Rose: There is no physical resemblance there.
15:21
George Clooney: No, but I tell you .
15:22
Charlie Rose: Even in the way, I mean, you know, you – you put on the glasses, here we are.
15:27
George Clooney: Yeah, yeah. Well, it is an interesting thing, though, because if you are only in two or three scenes with someone who is – who – who speaks .
15:33
Charlie Rose: Exactly, and my point is just physical resemblance.
15:36
George Clooney: No, no, no. I know, but – but there was something we wanted to do. We wanted to make Paley as imposing as possible.
15:42
Charlie Rose: And you did it by height?
15:44
George Clooney: Well, we even built the sets bigger. If you look at the sets, we make Murrow look much smaller in those sets.They have much — twice as high, the ceilings.
15:50
Charlie Rose: Yes.
15:52
George Clooney: And the reason is because if you are only in acouple of scenes, you don’t have much time to establish howimportant you are, especially if you are going to try and holdyour weight against someone who has these great speeches.Frank Langella is the actor that can walk into a room andimmediately demand attention.
16:03
Charlie Rose: And you wanted Paley to have that imposingsense of .
16:07
George Clooney: Yes, you need it. Because, we didn’t want to make Paley, which I think is we were very fair about, we didn’t want Paley to be a bad guy. We wanted him to be a guy.
16:16
Charlie Rose: A guy who was bowing to commercial realities.
16:18
George Clooney: A guy who is stuck in a tough position. You know, I’m — just today I got off the phone with Les Moonves, who is a friend of mine, he was — I was under contract to him at Warner Brothers.
16:25
Charlie Rose: Oh, he was the guy who always knew you were going to break out.
16:31
George Clooney: And he really, he really stuck up for me. He’s put himself in some rather difficult positions .
16:35
Charlie Rose: Yes, he did.
16:37
George Clooney: . with some of the comments he has made about news. And we talked about it. And I said, you know, I said to him, I – I want to be clear; you don’t want to turn news into MTV. And he said, no, I’m trying to find a way to keep news. And I said, but you understand that people are .
16:50
Charlie Rose: They are.
16:51
George Clooney: . worried.
16:54
Charlie Rose: Yeah.
16:56
George Clooney: They are concerned.
16:59
Charlie Rose: What does he want to do? I mean, I – I don’t quite know what Les wants. I mean, I — he is coming on this program at some point, but
17:05
George Clooney: I don’t know either. And – and we talk about it.And I – you know, he called me up and said come do “Network”live, because we had done “Fail/Safe” live for him. And I said .
17:14
Charlie Rose: Yes.
17:15
George Clooney: . really, because if you want to do “Network,” that means slamming a network.
17:19
Charlie Rose: Yes.
17:21
George Clooney: And he said, fair enough, do it. So he’s not afraid.
17:24
Charlie Rose: Are you going to do it?
17:25
George Clooney: And we’re going to do it. He’s not afraid of .
17:28
Charlie Rose: It’s a good idea. Yes. But that – that’s entertainment.
17:32
George Clooney: Yeah.
17:34
Charlie Rose: What we’re talking about here .
17:36
George Clooney: We’re talking about news.
17:38
Charlie Rose: What you are talking about and what he is talking about is how do you fix news at a — in a new century so that it doesn’t lose what – what’s its integrity, its credibility, and still not sliding too much in terms of entertainment? I mean, it’s perfectly OK in a sense to ask yourself how do I communicate truth .
17:49
George Clooney: Yes.
17:50
Charlie Rose: . to power in the most compelling way I can, aslong as I don’t violate, you know, as long as I don’t lose a sense of – of our .
17:55
George Clooney: As long as entertainment isn’t pushing thenews of the air .
17:58
Charlie Rose: Yes.
17:59
George Clooney: . that you’re cleaning room for entertainment, but the problem is when it actually becomes car chases, which have no news value at all. I don’t know. And you know, he is — and we talk about this a lot, he and I, and – and it’s, you know, it is an interesting round table when we were sitting there the other day with Walter Cronkite .
18:11
Charlie Rose: Right.
18:13
George Clooney: . and Tom Brokaw.
18:16
Charlie Rose: Yes, this is the thing you did (INAUDIBLE).
18:18
George Clooney: Yes, and Dan Rather, and we were all sittingthere, and they are all looking at Les and he had just come outwith these comments, you know.
18:23
Charlie Rose: So, what did he say?
18:24
George Clooney: And he said, guys, I’m trying to keep the news alive. Now, in many ways, he was — he is our Paley, which is rather than demonizing Les and saying, OK, well, you are just being a bad guy, I look at Les and say he’s actually trying to find a way to survive. I don’t know that I — I certainly don’t agree with the idea of making it a more entertaining show.
18:38
Charlie Rose: Yes.
18:39
George Clooney: I don’t. I’m not a newsman, but I’m the son of one. And my father certainly doesn’t like the idea of it. But I think that it’s more important to have the discussion about it, rather than just, you know, sort of demonizing people.
18:50
Charlie Rose: Yes, I mean, it really is a great question for all of us. I mean, I used to work at CBS twice and – and it is this notion of what does Les want to do.
18:56
George Clooney: Yes.
18:57
Charlie Rose: You know, and what is — how does he see, howdoes he see the challenge?
19:00
George Clooney: Right, right.
19:01
Charlie Rose: You know, and how far is he willing to go in orderto do what he says, save news.
19:05
George Clooney: Right. And I don’t know what saves news and what destroys it.
19:08
Charlie Rose: (INAUDIBLE), you know. Burn it down to save it.
19:12
George Clooney: Yeah, and – and you never know what that is,because I certainly believe that there is a lot of good news out there. The problem is that there is an awful lot of bad of it, too.
19:22
Charlie Rose: And does all this interest in public affairs andnews and – and ideas come from Nick Clooney’s son, thehousehold you grew up in.
19:29
George Clooney: The household I grew up — you know, I grew up in a family that, you know, when you are a newsman,especially a local newsman, you are sort of based in politics as well. That is part of your job. You are – you are interviewing, you are challenging everyone. You know, my dad asked tough questions of Jimmy Carter when the OPEC nations raised the price of gas.
19:47
Charlie Rose: Yes.
19:49
George Clooney: And he asked tough questions of Ford when he pardoned Nixon. You know, the idea was you are — it is your duty if you are a member of the fourth estate to question authority. Because as we know, over time, authority unquestioned and unchecked corrupts. And that’s his .
20:04
Charlie Rose: Absolute power.
20:05
George Clooney: . mantra. And so .
20:09
Charlie Rose: . corrupts absolutely.
20:13
George Clooney: It was for us as children, and as long as I’vebeen growing up, my sister the same way, my mother, the idea is when it is really not fun to do it, you’ve got to ask tough questions.
20:22
Charlie Rose: Do you have any part of you that says, look, by – by talent, by breaks, by looks, by a whole range of things, I have earned what I have, power .
20:30
George Clooney: Sure.
20:32
Charlie Rose: . and it’s important for me to figure out how do I maximize it, but how do I also use it, you know, how do I spend my political capital.
20:41
George Clooney: Political and social .
20:42
Charlie Rose: Yes.
20:44
George Clooney: . capital, not just political, you know. I got Pat Robertson on the phone when we were working on the One campaign. And I said, Dr. Robertson, you and I aren’t going to agree on too many things, but I think there is no two sides to the idea of ending, you know, AIDS and poverty and malaria in Africa.
21:01
Charlie Rose: And what did he say?
21:03
George Clooney: He said I have been doing it for a long time,and I’m in.
21:06
Charlie Rose: Right.
21:08
George Clooney: And I did – and I did “Nightline” together andwe did – I did his show. Talked on his show.
21:13
Charlie Rose: “The 700 Club” or whatever it is?
21:15
George Clooney: Yeah. And – and it was an interesting, you know, I find that the secret to it is in finding ways to, like you said, spend that capital in places where you think you – you can help. The way you must do it is be incredibly well informed on the issues you are talking about so that you don’t get marginalized.
21:32
Charlie Rose: Or you can make films and in turn use your ownskill, too.
21:35
George Clooney: Sure. But even then you get marginalized.Unless, like, for instance, this film, we were — I talked to my father about it, talked to Joe and Shirley about it, we double-sourced every scene in this film like an old-time journalist.
21:46
Charlie Rose: Yes.
21:48
George Clooney: Every scene happened. Because we were clear that if you do one mistake, you are going to get marginalized along the way. Now.
21:54
Charlie Rose: Yes. And that is what Murrow had to worry about too.
21:56
George Clooney: Sure.
21:57
Charlie Rose: You know, that we cannot step beyond the facts, or they will kill us. They will say, if there is one thing wrong with us, they will say everything is wrong with you.
22:04
George Clooney: Dan Rather.
22:05
Charlie Rose: Exactly, exactly. You talked to Dan?
22:08
George Clooney: Yes. He came to the screening.
22:10
Charlie Rose: Yeah. He was on the panel, was it .
22:13
George Clooney: Yeah, and he was – he was – it was beautifulbecause, you know, he – he is very emotional about things right now.
22:18
Charlie Rose: But he is emotional about everything.
22:19
George Clooney: Yes, and it was really interesting, because .
22:21
Charlie Rose: In a positive way. That is who he is.
22:24
George Clooney: He is. And I said, you know, you’ve had a bad year, Mr. Rather, you had a hell of a career and a bad year. And Marvin Kalb was there and said, you know, the thing toremember is that the story was right, the source was wrong.And he said that is always an important thing to remember.
22:34
Charlie Rose: That was Dan – that was Dan’s point, heconstantly made that point.
22:37
George Clooney: Yes.
22:39
Charlie Rose: They got in trouble for other reasons .
22:40
George Clooney: Sure.
22:42
Charlie Rose: . in terms of coming to – coming to that recognition.
22:45
George Clooney: Yeah, it took a little time.
22:46
Charlie Rose: . that the sources weren’t right.
22:49
George Clooney: Yes.
22:51
Charlie Rose: Let me take a look at the clip. I’m not sure what clip we have, but it will be from .
22:54
George Clooney: I’m sure it will be in black and white.
22:56
Charlie Rose: I think it will be in black and white, and we maysee Clooney or we may see someone else. Here it is.
23:03
George Clooney: We are going with the story that says that the U.S. Air Force tried Milo Radulovich without one shred of evidence and found him guilty of being a security risk without .
23:09
Unidentified Male: And you, who also have not seen the evidence, are claiming he’s not a security risk. Wouldn’t you guess that the people who have seen the contents of that envelope might have .
23:17
George Clooney: Who?
23:19
Unidentified Male: . a better idea of what makes someone adanger to his country?
23:23
George Clooney: Who?
23:24
Unidentified Male: Or do you think ..
23:26
George Clooney: Who are .
23:27
Unidentified Male: . it should just be you that decide?
23:30
George Clooney: Who are the people? Are they elected, are they appointed, do they have an axe to grind? Is it you, sir?
23:37
Charlie Rose: There you go. What do you want people to come out of this film with?
23:40
George Clooney: Some sense of .
23:41
Charlie Rose: We wish we had journalists like Edward R.Murrow around.
23:44
George Clooney: I think we always have, though, and I think .
23:47
Charlie Rose: We actually do. There is a lot of very smart and good people.
23:49
George Clooney: I do too. I don’t think we have anybody .
23:52
Charlie Rose: . that go up every day against circumstances not so much the way it was at that time, where their whole career was on the line, but in a sense, a going up against things in which it is very dicey as to whether you have the facts right and — et cetera.
24:03
George Clooney: And also, you know, putting your life on the line. There are a lot of kids out there doing that, too. I think there is some great journalism going on. I just don’t think there is ever going to be someone who has that kind of power again.
24:13
Charlie Rose: As Murrow did.
24:14
George Clooney: And that might be a good thing, because if that power is concentrated in someone who simply is there just to support an administration or whatever, than that could maybe be bad.
24:23
Charlie Rose: So I saw you last night.
24:24
George Clooney: Yeah.
24:26
Charlie Rose: In the country. You were on “Jon Stewart” last night.
24:30
George Clooney: Oh.
24:31
Charlie Rose: You know you did it. So what do you think of a program like that?
24:35
George Clooney: I love that program.
24:36
Charlie Rose: I do too. Everybody loves that program.
24:39
George Clooney: Right.
24:41
Charlie Rose: I mean, but did it — that’s entertainment.
24:42
George Clooney: Oh, it is entertainment.
24:43
Charlie Rose: That is comedy, but it’s satire.
24:45
George Clooney: But satire has been a big part of our politicaleducation forever.
24:49
Charlie Rose: But aren’t you worried that people think that is real news? Because sometimes the point is so powerful, it is better than made by the way he does than it is in other ways.
24:57
George Clooney: I would argue this.
24:59
Charlie Rose: The same way that Maureen Dowd can take language and use it in a powerful way.
25:02
George Clooney: But she still doesn’t get a White House press pass.
25:05
Charlie Rose: I know.
25:07
George Clooney: On the other side —
25:09
Charlie Rose: I don’t think that is the worst thing to everhappen to Maureen.
25:13
George Clooney: No, she’s probably happy about that. But I would say this, you know, during the lead-up to the war and certainly in the beginnings of the war, you could argue thatsome of the best news was coming out of that comedy show.They were actually bringing up issues that weren’t being talked about in other places. I find that music, protest songs over the ’60s, over the, you know, during the during the Depression, music has been oftentimes a great way to start a discussion.Comedy and satire has been a great way, certainly to bring upissues like civil rights and women’s rights movements.
25:46
Charlie Rose: But the point is — I agree with all that — but the point is that some say, and Jon Stewart, that they think it’s news. And you are right, it does. The dismemberment of what people have said, their own words, on that show, is as penetrating as anything, you know. And Jon uses his own style to do it, and enhances the power of what these people say. But there are others who worry, why aren’t — are they only getting their news from Jon?
26:13
George Clooney: Well, the problem is that is not Jon’s fault; that’s saying that there is a lack somewhere else of real information. I mean, we all do agree and I think when “The New York Times” prints an apology for not asking enough tough questions about the lead-up of weapons of mass destruction.
26:30
Charlie Rose: Chalabi and all that.
26:33
George Clooney: You know, Chalabi and — that is the strangest one of them all, when you think about it, that Judith Miller was the one who basically they were apologizing for the stories of, is also the one who ends up spending 85 days in jail. It is a very strange, sort of complex —
26:46
Charlie Rose: And I still don’t know what happened. Do you?
26:49
George Clooney: I don’t either. You didn’t write the story.
26:53
Charlie Rose: And still, I mean, Karl Rove was back before thejury, the grand jury today. I assume trying to make a case for himself.
26:59
George Clooney: Today they said that they won’t bring him back and that he won’t be indicted, probably.
27:02
Charlie Rose: Who said that? Fitzgerald or his lawyer?
27:06
George Clooney: I think it might have been his lawyer.
27:08
Charlie Rose: Well, he probably wouldn’t go out and say thatunless he had some reason to say that.
27:12
George Clooney: Yeah.
27:13
Charlie Rose: So he is not a target but.
27:15
George Clooney: Right.
27:16
Charlie Rose: Bill O’Reilly.
27:17
George Clooney: Oh, yes.
27:19
Charlie Rose: You know him.
27:21
George Clooney: Sure I do.
27:24
Charlie Rose: You were on my show talking about him. He calls me up. I think I have got this about right, and says I told Clooney, mutual ground, CHARLIE ROSE.
27:33
George Clooney: No, he’s never said that, he has never ever — I —
27:36
Charlie Rose: He said I will be with — he said to me, I — bearwith me on this, because I mean, we tried to reach you about this. I will do your show with George, and let us do it there.
27:47
George Clooney: I’ve said this every —
27:49
Charlie Rose: Would you do that with him?
27:51
George Clooney: Anytime anywhere. He has never said yes publicly.
27:55
Charlie Rose: So I —
27:57
George Clooney: Has he said yes to you publicly, publicly?
27:59
Charlie Rose: Well, I don’t know, George, you got me there, I don’t know. But I mean, I will find out.
28:04
George Clooney: Because I’ve said —
28:06
Charlie Rose: Let me just figure it out, though. If he will come to this table —
28:09
George Clooney: Absolutely.
28:11
Charlie Rose: You will be here.
28:13
George Clooney: And we will debate the issues that he brought up, that he started, which were the fraud of the 9/11 telethon, which he continues to say that he fixed, and continues to talk about the Red Cross. And I continue to say we are the United Way, Bill. But I would be happy to debate all those issues.
28:25
Charlie Rose: On this show.
28:27
George Clooney: Anytime you want. And I have said it on a lot of shows and said —
28:30
Charlie Rose: On all of these other shows you’ve said (INAUDIBLE).
28:33
George Clooney: I have shown up everywhere and said this.
28:35
Charlie Rose: Because he said to me, your show is the place to do this.
28:39
George Clooney: Sure.
28:41
Charlie Rose: And I will do it, and he said —
28:42
George Clooney: I would love it. That to me is neutral ground.What I won’t do is go to the man who owns the microphone,because — as he shouldn’t come if I had a show and do my show.
28:49
Charlie Rose: Because I ask him to come do somebody else, and he wouldn’t want to do it. I guess it was Al Franken.
28:56
George Clooney: Right.
28:58
Charlie Rose: Would have nothing to do with that, he said.
28:59
George Clooney: Well, Bill’s got bigger problems.
29:01
Charlie Rose: So we may have a show in this.
29:03
George Clooney: Sure.
29:04
Charlie Rose: He’s got bigger problems meaning?
29:06
George Clooney: He’s got bigger problems now, you know.
29:07
Charlie Rose: Like what?
29:08
George Clooney: Well —
29:09
Charlie Rose: You’re not talking about whole little issues he raninto with — private issues.
29:13
George Clooney: I don’t know, you know. All I can say is —
29:16
Charlie Rose: You’re talking about private problems, becausethat’s not —
29:20
George Clooney: Well, here’s my issue on that. I don’t preach morality, obviously, but I would say this.
29:23
Charlie Rose: Wait, wait, why do you say obviously?
29:25
George Clooney: Because I am who I am —
29:28
Charlie Rose: He who is without sin casts the first stone?
29:30
George Clooney: Believe me, I’m a glass houses kind of guy. But I will say this, if someone had accused me of the things —
29:34
Charlie Rose: I’m with you, brother.
29:35
George Clooney: — I was accused of, I certainly wouldn’t have settled. I have been accused of things and have not settled.
29:40
Charlie Rose: You?
29:41
George Clooney: Uh-huh.
29:43
Charlie Rose: Today.
29:44
George Clooney: Yes.
29:45
Charlie Rose: This film speaks for itself. People love the film.Cost you $$7 million?
29:49
George Clooney: 7.5.
29:50
Charlie Rose: 7.5. You had to put yourself in it because Hollywood wants you in it.
29:54
George Clooney: Yes, yes.
29:56
Charlie Rose: Would you have done it if they said, it doesn’thave to be you, George? I mean, it is a great story, it will tell itself.
30:00
George Clooney: Oh —
30:02
Charlie Rose: Would you still have done it?
30:04
George Clooney: No, I wouldn’t have done the role, then, no. It’s not fun directing yourself.
30:07
Charlie Rose: I wouldn’t think so.
30:09
George Clooney: No, what do you say? Hey, you were great.Why thanks, I thought you were fantastic too.
30:14
Charlie Rose: But — and also, directing is a big job.
30:15
George Clooney: It’s a big job. And it takes, you know, it is solving a million problems a day. That’s what you do. I like that.It is a fun — it is a fun gig.
30:23
Charlie Rose: But are you doing it simply because — I mean, areyou doing it because of that, also because at some point, allthe acting roles that you like may not be there and —
30:29
George Clooney: You think? No, I don’t think at some point. I think that they —
30:33
Charlie Rose: Like tomorrow?
30:35
George Clooney: Look, unless you are — unless you are really —
30:38
Charlie Rose: The sun is beginning to set on Clooney’s career?
30:42
George Clooney: Well, unless you are really dumb, you — andthink that you are actually going to get the chance to remain in the public eye for that long a period of time and work at the level that you like to work at as an actor, you either — you do two things. You become a character actor as you go, like Paul Newman, who has masterfully done it, and you find other things. You direct, you write, you produce. You have fallback positions along the way. Otherwise you are going to just be, you know, you are going to be in an audition at 70 years old with a bunch of other guys that thought they were invincible.
31:09
Charlie Rose: How about politics?
31:11
George Clooney: Not for me.
31:13
Charlie Rose: Why not?
31:14
George Clooney: I, you know, Steven and I, Soderbergh and Idid “K Street” for about —
31:18
Charlie Rose: I know.
31:20
George Clooney: We were in Washington for about 15 weeks.
31:21
Charlie Rose: What was that, on HBO? Where was that?
31:24
George Clooney: It was on HBO. And everybody thought it was going to be this greatly liberal, screaming liberal show, and it wasn’t. And we worked with Mary Matalin and Michael Deaver, and we had a lot of fairly strong conservative —
31:35
Charlie Rose: Matalin?
31:37
George Clooney: Mary Matalin.
31:39
Charlie Rose: Oh, oh, Mary Matalin, right.
31:42
George Clooney: And the more time I spent there, the more Irealized how little I like the idea of the kind of compromisesthat you have to make in politics. I don’t dislike politicians, I just don’t — I’m not capable of that kind of a compromise. You know, the idea that you would have to accept this much to get this much done, I couldn’t do it.
32:03
Charlie Rose: The interesting thing about you, George, there is also, I mean, O’Reilly is one example, also this whole thing about “Hard Copy,” when you thought that the invasion was too much and so you went to “Entertainment Tonight,” sameproducer, I guess Paramount, and said, we’re not going to beavailable for your show if you allow “Hard Copy.”
32:17
George Clooney: But see, again, I didn’t believe —
32:20
Charlie Rose: A lot of people wouldn’t have done that becausethey are fearful of whatever the consequences —
32:24
George Clooney: I’m not — listen, you know what, the truth is this. I have — I made a very good living and I have done fine, andI have saved my money, and I’m not afraid of anybody. And that’s the truth.
32:34
Charlie Rose: There’s no fear.
32:37
George Clooney: Absolutely — I just spent a year, it’s beenphysically the worst year of my life. And — and there isn’t anything else, you know, there’s — I’m not afraid of anything.
32:45
Charlie Rose: It is amazing when you — and I realize this too –how crucial your health is. You can have as much money, as much fame, you can have the world’s greatest job, as I do.
32:54
George Clooney: Uh-huh.
32:56
Charlie Rose: And if you don’t have your health, then, man, you know. And that will teach you about fear.
33:02
George Clooney: It takes away all of the other elements.Because you go, well, what is the worst thing that could happen? I remember, I was at one point — Bill O’Reilly had done a show, he’d done a half an hour show about how my career was over because of my political views. I called my dad up and I said, am I in trouble here?
33:18
Charlie Rose: Is there something I’m missing?
33:20
George Clooney: And my dad said, shut up. What are you crazy, you know? Muhammad Ali went to the Supreme Court and almost went to jail for things he believed in, and you are worried about, you know, making a little bit less money? Shut up. Grow up. Be a grown-up. And he’s right. And it is an interesting, you know, once that happens, all fear sort of goes away.
33:40
Charlie Rose: So no fear.
33:41
George Clooney: No, I can always sell my house in Italy and liveoff of that. You know? I mean, I am a grown-up. And I can live in a one-bedroom apartment.
33:49
Charlie Rose: Real estate on Lake Como (ph) is good, isn’t it?
33:53
George Clooney: I will be fine.
33:54
Charlie Rose: Do you actually live there?
33:56
George Clooney: I spend about four and a half months out ofthe year there, so yes, that’s a long time.
34:00
Charlie Rose: In the summertime —
34:01
George Clooney: In the summer, mostly. Yeah. I love it there.
34:05
Charlie Rose: How do you see the balance you want to find in your life?
34:09
George Clooney: Well, I’m getting better at figuring out what it is I want to do. Because you know, when you are younger, you’re really just trying to get a job. You are not really held responsible for some of the gigs you get, because you are actually just trying to get work. Then you get to that place where you can greenlight a picture, you are responsible for the work. So you are no longer just responsible for yourperformance in a film, you are also responsible for the filmsthat are getting made. So then you have to choose differently.And you have to think, well, what is my legacy going to be, or what is it that I want to say. Or 25 years from now, do I want to be able to point back to a specific period of time and say, that’s where I stood, that is what I was doing? Then, you turn around and say, now let’s find a place in society that I can participate, because you know, for so long as an actor your concerns are trying to get yourself work. Once you get to a comfortable place there, you also have a place to look around and say, OK, let’s look at the issues in society that you can participate in and work at. It wasn’t just the telethons. I have become very involved in the — I went to the G-8 summit.
35:05
Charlie Rose: I know you did.
35:07
George Clooney: It was just wild.
35:08
Charlie Rose: And you loved it.
35:10
George Clooney: I loved it.
35:11
Charlie Rose: Because here are the guys in Scotland trying toput poverty on the agenda. Everything was upset because of the fact they had to go to London in response to the tragedy there. But — do you believe poverty is on the international agenda in a serious way that is going to make a difference?
35:25
George Clooney: I think that it is more on the agenda now thanit was before. And that means, you know, like we got the money to $50 billion in aid and got some debt relief done. And that was Bono and Geldof who did that.
35:36
Charlie Rose: Bono said to me, if I had known we could havedone it, I would have asked for $200.
35:40
George Clooney: Yeah. But it was hard to get it to $50 million.You know, we were in a room with Wolfowitz and all these guys in the back of a concert and —
35:48
Charlie Rose: Your new best friend.
35:50
George Clooney: Yeah, they were all saying, well, we’re notgoing to — it’s not going to get to this, and it’s not going to get to that. So it was a real struggle to get it to that. And you go, OK, well, that’s not enough. Obviously, it’s not enough. And there is also a lot of accountability, you know, can’t give it to Mugabe, you know. We understand that. But along those lines, if a million kids or grown-ups or people who are dying don’t die because of that, you know, that movement that those men, that Bono and Geldof have done, well that is a really —
36:17
Charlie Rose: Well, there is also a whole lot of other people, I mean —
36:21
George Clooney: Of course, no, no, no, but I’m saying —
36:23
Charlie Rose: Jeffrey Sachs and a lot of other people.
36:25
George Clooney: Yeah, but I’m talking about — but I’m talkingabout entertainment folk, you know.
36:31
Ok: And I’m just saying if that’s — if you can be involved in part of that movement, then, OK, well, if it fails ultimately in solving all the problems, which of course it will, maybe you are taking on little chunks and succeeding, you know, that is the idea.
36:42
Charlie Rose: I think about things like poverty and a wholebunch of other issues. You know, what I hope is that we are beginning to see the power of the resources that can be brought to bear.
36:51
George Clooney: Uh-huh.
36:54
Charlie Rose: You know, some — coming out of this, a wholerange of things, in terms of conservation, in terms of changing the energy dynamic, a whole lot of other things in terms of global health. You look at what Bill Gates has been able to do.
37:06
George Clooney: Uh-huh, well, he is the biggest of them all.Well, you know —
37:09
Charlie Rose: In terms of bringing resources beyond government.
37:13
George Clooney: Are you talking about the private sector, you mean?
37:16
Charlie Rose: Just beyond government, people getting involved in a smart way.
37:20
George Clooney: Well, I think you are right. I think it has to be.
37:23
Charlie Rose: To tap resources that can make a difference.
37:25
George Clooney: I also think that we have to get a collectiveconscience that says that the world is no longer the megeneration again. That we have to actually participate, because it’s no longer a sea of difference, an ocean away. It is actually a click of a computer (INAUDIBLE).
37:37
Charlie Rose: And it is no longer I hope viewed as sort of liberal do- goodism. It has taken on much more of a practical, effective direction.
37:45
George Clooney: Think about, for instance, during the tsunami event. A lot of the — there was a good percentage of — of the alQaeda that was sort of festering in those areas that lost some foothold because of America’s involvement in helping to rebuild and re — you know, I think that hopefully that —
38:00
Charlie Rose: Changed the image there for a while in the region.
38:05
George Clooney: Some. And you hope that is going to happen in Pakistan as well, you know, that we are going to be able to get in there and help, because this is a major, major disaster there.
38:14
Charlie Rose: So you look carefully at what you are doing.
38:16
George Clooney: Yes.
38:18
Charlie Rose: You’ll do films that, you know, Clint has that sort of interesting dynamic, where he will do some for them, some for himself, and sometimes both of them may converge, likeMillion Dollar Baby.
38:25
George Clooney: Every once in a while, every once in a while –and “Mystic River” made money, too.
38:31
Charlie Rose: “Mystic River,” too.
38:33
George Clooney: Sure, but the truth of the matter is, your job is to try – – my job is to try and sell movies, and give a goodperformance as an actor. And I make no apologies —
38:41
Charlie Rose: If you don’t do that, the rest of it won’t flow.
38:43
George Clooney: Yeah, and you know, “Ocean’s 11” is a reallygood movie. I’m proud of that film. And it is effective and entertaining, which I don’t think is a bad thing at all. And if that allows me the ability to go do “Solaris” or “Confessions” or other films like that, then great. I have a film coming out, “Syriana,” that is going to make all these look like a Disney film.
39:02
Charlie Rose: What is “Syriana” about?
39:04
George Clooney: It’s —
39:08
Charlie Rose: Oh, this is about — and you play —
39:11
George Clooney: I play a character based on Bob Baer.
39:14
Charlie Rose: Oh, the CIA guy.
39:16
George Clooney: The
39:18
Cia Guy. And It’s But It’s All About: But this will be an adventure story, won’t it?
39:23
George Clooney: OK. Yes. It is an adventure story, all right.
39:26
Charlie Rose: OK, what’s it — this is about what, what is –what’s the story?
39:32
George Clooney: It is sort of the oil version of “Traffic.” It’s a lot of inter-connected stories —
39:38
Charlie Rose: Corruption.
39:40
George Clooney: — about oil —
39:44
Charlie Rose: And how about your personal life? Is everything OK there?
39:48
George Clooney: Everything is very good, actually. I am having a very good time.
39:50
Charlie Rose: Beyond the health, and now you are working on that.
39:53
George Clooney: And I a enjoying — I’m working on a film right now called “The Good German” with Steven Soderbergh and Kate Blanchett and Tobey Maguire again, and I’m loving it.Black and white, another black and white film, aboutoccupation in 1945 in Berlin. It’s interesting.
40:07
Charlie Rose: It’s great. Oh, man.
40:11
George Clooney: It’s a fun time.
40:13
Charlie Rose: Thank you for coming. It’s always great to see you.
40:17
George Clooney: Always great to see you.
40:19
Charlie Rose: I hope we can do this again soon.
40:21
George Clooney: Me too.
40:23
Charlie Rose: Pleasure. “Good Night and Good Luck,” George’s film that he directs and also plays a wonderful human being, Fred Friendly, who I knew well and was Ed Murrow’s producer.
40:31
George Clooney: Uh-huh.
40:32
Charlie Rose: And his wife, Ruth, lives and is a wonderful partner. So many people from CBS, Shirley and Joe Worshiper (ph), who were around to become friends. This is a movie that you want to see. Thank you for joining us. We’ll be right back.

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